Guest Speaker

Sam Rushing

  • Introduction

Sam Rushing is a chemist and president of Advanced Cryogenics Ltd. He has vast merchant and consulting experience to bring forward to the CO2 source or project.

 Advanced Cryogenics, Ltd. is primarily a carbon dioxide consulting firm, which serves all source – types of raw and refined CO2. The company is supported by decades of carbon dioxide industry expertise. This carbon dioxide industry – related experience is twofold, from the merchant CO2 sector, and in the practice, and development of a dedicated CO2 consulting business.


  1. Review the CO2 merchant supply network and source types domestically. 
  2. Discuss/review crop growth enhancement via CO2 atmospheric enhancement. 
  3. Review CO2 supercritical cannabis/CBD extraction via CO2 as a premium solvent in the industry, v. agents such as hydrocarbon – based solvents.

  • Getting to know the Guest Speaker

Sam Rushing introduced himself and said, And my company is Advanced Cryogenics Ltd. I’m a co2 consultant. I work all over the world. And most of my work is in North America. But I’ve worked. I’ve worked in many countries throughout the world as a consultant and toward that end, my work involves evaluating co2 sources, developing new co2 sources, co2 production plants, and production plants essentially is purification of raw strain that’s coming off of a chemical process. And also my other work is involved in applications for co2, such as we talked about supercritical extraction and greenhouse enhancement, things like that. Plus a lot of it in the food and beverage industry as well as industrial applications for co2. And of course, what’s happened over the last few years even more so in the last year or two has been a drive toward limiting co2 that’s being vented to the atmosphere, recovering it and using it in a process and hopefully trapping it in a process and so we’re trying to reduce or not add to at least see co2 content in the atmosphere. It’s over 400 parts per million right now. But anyway, further on my background, I’m a chemist by background and prior to running my business advanced cryogenics, I work for a company called American Gas co2 division. The American Gas organization was owned by utility and Pennsylvania, they sold up pieces of it to whomever. And when the company sold out, I formed my company. In the merchant company, the Americas organization, I have held many jobs, Application Engineer, all kinds of things like that. So, I feel I’m very well rounded as a consultant, I provide virtually all types of services relating to the commodity and expert witness work and all kinds of stuff. So anyway, Mandi that’s kind of the short of it right there.

  • Projects

Mandi Lynn Kerr asked a question and said, I want to hear about some of the projects you’ve worked on. What have been some of the most interesting types of products or not products projects?

Sam Rushing replied and said, the food and beverage industry, the beverage industry is always there to some degree. See, let me just tell you about the breakdown with respect to co2 utilization in this country, about 70% of all co2, call it merchant co2, we’re not talking about stuff that goes to oil fields and across the fence for chemical manufacturing, but the so called merchant trade 70% Is food and beverage of which about 70% of that would be food. And that kind of food application will be fast freezing using co2 as a refrigerant for cryogenic freezing. Choose for atmospheric replacement like to replace atmospheres in an say, meat product or a food product. So bacteria will not grow that kind of thing. It’s used for production of dry ice and co2 snow for shipment of products. And of course, during the pandemic, that was the whole thing about Pfizer, their medication had to be very low temperature, the only agent of particle agent would have been dry ice for that, for that kind of thing. Now, a lot of them have installed super cold refrigeration since then. But anyway, it’s uh, that’s the food industry, beverage industry, has always been a for carbonated beverages it picked up more so with carbonated water. And now the so called craft beverages, everybody, has an alcohol based drink now, just about everybody, even the tea manufacturers. So that’s a change. And then with respect to industrial uses, one popular thing for sequestration is putting co2 in concrete. And that enhances a strain to the concrete, calcium carbonate content. It’s also sequestered indefinitely. So but then that’s, that’s a finite amount of co2 that could go out there for sequestration. A lot of companies are looking at sequestering and downhole sandstone into permeable structures and underground. Then on a larger scale, co2 is recovered, generally not from these chemical plants, but from large natural sources, that are natural wells that contain co2. And that goes for enhanced oil recovery, which could be very large and it’s in sight, or, in some cases the energy sector. There’s one project and and called colorant, Dakota gasification, it’s in North Dakota, that I think they haul transport about 10,000 tons per day, that’s a lot of co2 via pipeline to the Saskatchewan oil fields for enhancing the recovery of oil, which, essentially, it’s a solvent, okay, in that in that application, that’s also a solvent for supercritical extraction of CBD, which I’ll talk about later. But anyway, going back to what we talked about the the sector with respect to where it comes from, it’s a byproduct in virtually all for the way the exception of the natural wells on the natural wells probably hold as much as 20% of the co2 supply within the, say the supply chain within the merchant network. That’s significant. 45% of all co2 that sold to the merchant entrance street would be recovered from fermentation or otherwise called ethanol in most cases, and of course, the fuel grade ethanol sold to the gasoline industry as an additive, everything we put in our gas tanks contains ethanol. In the Midwest, there’s a big push to increase that use of gasoline blended to 15%. Most places are five to 10% right now. But then in the end, ethanol is critically important to the co2 industry as a supply source. And then you have the anhydrous ammonia production, the ammonia that’s used and farming as a fertilizer that’s about 20%, the byproduct of that. The natural wells I spoke of earlier, these are wells that contain high purity co2.

There’s a huge dome around Jackson, Mississippi, that is a big supply source for a lot of the gas companies, which once it’s taken out of the ground, it’s purified and liquefied, but it’s coming out very pure but everybody’s trying to make beverage great and beverage greatest spot would serve the cannabis industry as well, by the way, because they their various great sold and you might say but in the end is virtually all sold his beverage grade or maybe a few a few industrial locations, or some say hospital grade. And that’s another story altogether, that’s less than 5% of the market. Now, in addition to 20% coming from pneumonia and 20% natural sources, reformer sources, which are essentially producing hydrogen and refined raises, represent about 10% of the source type for the merchant trade as well. And then there’s a remaining 5%. That would be a whole bunch of stuff like flue gas recovery and ethylene oxide and other chemicals like titanium dioxide and sin gas and stuff like that, and the industry is striving to come up with new clean source types. Bio biogas, of course, is a hot issue today making natural gas or orangey renewable natural gas off biogas. The beverage industry is not accepting biogas because it contains what they call waste. And it can be absolute waste, like fecal matter. We’re not happy with any of that but that’s reality. That stuff would be in the end, a lot of it is coming from industrial, municipal wastewater Trump plants. And then there are some farming operations that have biogas using just food waste products like orange peels, or whatever it might be or vegetables. And nobody is really recovering co2 from that sector yet for the merchant trade because it has a label of waste attached to it in a beverage outfit. So just saying no waste period in a feedstock. So another source types would be things like I worked on a project up in British Columbia that was to make renewable natural gas from waste wood waste wood, being a forestry scraps when they take down trees and things like that, or other wood waste, which waste in that respect is just talks about what scraps essentially and using that for making renewable natural gas, which is wonderful, that’s a nice green feedstock. And then you have a co2 byproduct from that particular process. And that would be extremely green. So that’s one new thing that has been discussed. Another one would be fuel cells making electricity with fuel cells, and then co2 byproduct off a given process. And once again, that’s extremely clean. You’re not burning anything in burning hydrocarbons, you’re not producing oil or anything like that in order to me co2. So in that respect, it’s, an extremely clean source type. Mandi what’s the next thought?

  • Difference on International Trade and Use

Mandi Lynn Kerr asked a question and said, Okay, I’ve got a question when we were talking about the different types of use, right, we talked about all the different verticals. What about the differences between international trade and use?

Sam Rushing replied, Well saying that developed countries like the states here or say Western Europe, for example, or Japan or Australia, places like that. They have basically the same percentage of co2 going for food and beverage as we have here. Which beverages are starting to grow a little bit. Because of these crafts, beverages and so on. It’s all carbonated. But food is a predominant application for a whole bunch of stuff in food. So, and then in terms of international, they might be slightly different while the applications are essentially the same, but the specifications are defined a little bit differently, although there is a beverage group, which trade association that has set standards for beverage quality, and that’s that it’s like black and white.

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, the whole bio discussion really comes down to what does bioline?

Sam Rushing said, Well, yeah. And that respect, essentially, what it comes down to is, we’re talking about purity. Yeah, the end result, and we have to have absolute purity for beverage grade, and virtually everything is produced as beverage made, because in fact, the gas companies refuse to separate trailers or or need distribution equipment for say, industrial versus blue. Yeah, which I wish they would for the sake of something like biogas, but then stuff going to industrial uses, like say, welding gases and things like that, that are foundries things like that, that are not going to care about the source type, as long as

  • Using CO2 for Atmospheric Enhancements

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, heavy metal, potentially or other chemicals may be in the plant. Yeah. So what about, you’d mentioned that using co2 for atmospheric enhancements, what does that mean? And how is that done? And can you talk to me about that? 

Sam Rushing said, we have somewhere because of increased emissions in the atmosphere, we have around 400 parts per million co2 in the atmosphere that every inquire that we breathe, right, taught 101 times it was in the three hundreds, high three hundreds, mid to high 300 zones in a lower four hundreds. But anyway, to enhance the growth of cannabis plants, for example, that buds, they call for raising the atmospheric content in a greenhouse, to 800. The range between 800 and 1000 parts per million, okay. And we have 400, and air that we breathe through and be raised to that level and at a bare minimum. Now, some say you can raise it to 1500 parts, and that’s fine. And I would suspect that some of the operators claim that 1000 to 1500 parts per million in the greenhouse versus the 800 to 1000 being more effective, well, it’s within the greater range, it’s probably very good. And, the ultimate result is a que will improve your yield by 10 to 25%. With this enhanced content of co2 in the atmosphere, generally, it takes somewhere about two weeks to see results. The today, per day, every day, that’s where you have growth in the control greenhouse, there should be 12 hours a light, we hope, and temperatures inconsistent with what we have in greenhouse operations. So no, it really does work. And there are a whole bunch of these greenhouse operations in the western part of Ontario, and there are other places where they have a lot of concentration of cannabis growth.

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, It’s interesting to me to hear this right, because we look at sustainability and the carbon footprint of the cannabis operation of a medical or recreational indoor grow in a greenhouse. Pretty carbon intensive.

Sam Rushing replied and said, but on the other hand, you have to look at the co2 uptake by the plants. So that’s a form of sequestration. Sure. And so in the world of sequestration, everybody is seeking methods to reduce their carbon footprint. So if you’re able to have enough plants that that co2 uptake just as a forest in a way, you’re going to be right, it’s correct.

  • Cannabis Side

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, So talk to me about the cannabis side, right and cannabis grows when you’re seeing that influx. You said increased yields, are the typical grows then sequestering the carbon?

Sam Rushing said, yes

Mandi Lynn Kerr replied, That’s what they eat. 

Sam Rushing said, that’s correct. In the process of photosynthesis, so light, and water and co2, and those are the ingredients, essentially, at least the main ingredients, but the improvement that it’s up to 25%. So, a lot of companies claim some claim even more enhancement, which would be as a denser bud for cannabis and pro growth of the plant overall.


  • To be more green and pull more natural products

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, I’m really interested in I want to get back to the supercritical on the extraction piece also, but we’re not really interested is know the use of and the requirements for hemp to be used if we’re converting it to an ethanol or a byproduct where co2 becomes the byproduct, no, one of those specs are that standard. And hearing you say that we’ve got this poll from industry to be more green and to pull more natural products, more sustainable materials. Can you dive into that a little bit more? What are some of the questions that would come up? What are some things to consider? Maybe where are some points that we need to? Or groups or organizations, you talked about an event? That is that’s coming up, that you’re speaking out, where it may be a good opportunity for us to learn about where off takes would be from processing?

Sam Rushing replied and said, Okay, well, I fully believe in biomass, and I think biomass is a strong, which would be some of the material you have speaking of coming from hemp, and the biomass to me is a great source, feedstock for ethanol production, and production of and then co2 byproduct to be very green coming off something like that. What, there could be the critics and saying, Well you’re, you’re producing co2 off of this process. But on the other hand, if it’s a co2 off this process of being used in the right applications, then there is consumption once again, or utilization. Once again, we’re even sequestration. Some companies have nificant demand for co2.

the demand or at the moment let me just tell you about the markets at the moment, right now, the markets are extremely short compared to most places in the States. It’s in a crisis mode now in New England, in the middle Atlantic area, because like these big ammonia plants are shutting down for annual turnaround or maintenance. There’ll be down for six weeks at the very minimum, and it’s a cycle that occurs every year. But it’s become worse because of the COVID. And the supply chain issues, or lack of sufficient safe drivers, the lack of transportation equipment, and it’s often driven by the COVID factors in many ways. If you have your biomass sources, and close to consuming location, which has a heavy usage, and markets that really need it, I mean, that’d be a wonderful fit. Now, it could be virtually anywhere in the states and have a good fit right now, because the supply is extremely tight. And there are, by the way, 111 operating plants in the states more or less, and that’s a lot of plants that produce co2, on average, these plants would produce about 400 tons per day per plant. And think about that amount of tonnage. That’s a long time. Right now, some of those plants are down or short changed because of a lack of feedstock. feedstock. In the case of the ammonia industry, I’ve shut a bunch of plants down. The ethanol industry has had its problems since the beginning of COVID, because gasoline consumption dropped significantly. And of course, we know ethanol said to gasoline, therefore the ethanol plants were down or reducing capacity and at 45% of the entire supply chain and reliance on ethanol. So t’s driven by gasoline in that case now. I’d say if your markets could be attached to things other than that, and may be wonderful, or even supplemental to that. The question I have is, what have we got, for example, I’m going to give a piece of Chicago at the gas World Conference on the 21st of this month, and it’s called gasweld co2 summit. And it’s a good event for the hundreds of delegates that are will be there from all sectors, that all kinds of things, whether they be the producer, or the innovator or the consumer, and many of whom are are looking to try to bridge the gap during these times, like right now, when there’s extreme there, extreme shortages, and the New England has been, for example, in eastern USA has been chronically under supply with a product for 1000 reasons. A lot of the reasons are because traditional feedstocks and sources have just not been enough. And if we talk about a news supply biofuels are wonderful. But biomass in itself could be the next big development I feel for the industry.

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, Biomass itself just because then the chemical process or whatever process it goes into, could create a plethora of different products.

Sam Rushing replied and said, And then biomass speaking into that, if you could say, take some of that off of the half supply, or the from the ham. That’d be a wonderful fit right there.

  • The Opportunities 

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, Yeah, turns I mean, that’s one of the biggest values to have is right, is how fast it’s capable of producing in a short period of time and what it does, and like you said, and then it grows, of course, the whole point is that it’s sequestering carbon into its stock and then converted. And so yeah, that is, like you said, it becomes this circle. Yeah, it’s interesting to me, I, I still, there’s so much I don’t know, on the carbon dioxide side, or the chemical process side, or what is needed as far as like food grade compared to industrial applications, but envision that, as the industry grows, and it is a need to grow and have off takes, right right now, there is the demand is huge. And as, as the oil and gas industry, or the biofuels or biobutanol, or ethanol open, open up and the demand for acres to fulfill those orders become doable, and we start to see acres grown, then I can see it definitely  merging into this, but I see where the demand really becomes we’ve got this need on one side of the industry where we have a potential option to fulfill or to move into these biofuels or biobutanol, or bio ethanol. And so I’m curious, I would be interested in continuing the conversation, and where do I think the opportunity is? Where do we connect these dots? So it’s really interesting, what do you suppose is really pulling? Like, where is that pain point that’s really pulling the industry, from your side, to say that we need to find something that’s more eco friendly or bio based? Where’s that drive?

Sam Rushing replied and said, Well, there’s really a drive towards sustainability of the planet. That’s what it comes down to. And I mean, the diehard, if you will, sources from oil and gas, like chemical production, that’s always going to be there to some degree, like it or not, yeah. And that’s critically important. I mean, I love my internal combustion engine cars, and I do that. But the whole thing about going 100% battery is a thing for the long term, I believe. But in the interim, co2 is a byproduct of ethanol, which is used as a fuel additive and will be going on for a very long time still. And then there are other markets for ethanol the beverage market, of course, and the medical markets, a lot of things like that.

  • Supply Chain

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, there are critical things that we need to be able to support right, I just looked at the opportunity if it is a more green solution or process, it’s not a matter of eliminating but clearly the demand is there, the noise and we look at supply chain and it just kind of I had an aha moment as you’re saying that without being able to use co2 to freeze and ship we’re not able to move meat across supply chains.

Sam Rushing said, Yeah, in places like the UK they had such a severe shortage. During earlier parts of The COVID crisis, the government got involved in trying to help direct companies to produce more co2. But on the other hand, that’s all a function of, it’s a byproduct. So ammonia Plansee fermentation plants and stuff like that shut down in the UK for a period of time and they try to get them going again, in order to have the co2 byproducts. And it’s so critically important to the companies that wanted to produce their product and then in the media said, Oh, we’re gonna run out of meat, we’re gonna run out of poultry and so on. But in reality, that’s a necessary ingredient for a lot of that processing. Say the poultry industry is extremely tight to, to co2 for refriger as a refrigerant, and it’s the most versatile of all applications. Call it a refrigerate, the most versatile, versatile refrigerant there is versus, say mechanical, freezing, or even nitrogen is much more so. And it’s usually more affordable. I mean, right now, things are out of sight in terms of price, but I want to believe that I can calm down. It’s a function of supply and demand and advantage, well known ways of supply chain right now.

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, But I think that we’re feeling that pinch everywhere, right? And the need to localize the opportunity, we have to the opportunity that we have to supply locally is really, I think more a bio based or a potential buyer base. But I still see this big hurdle, like you explained on what does bioline on what’s included in that classification.

Sam Rushing replied and said, I would, I would say bio, essentially, if I go back to my chemical background and talked about bio, and I speak, I think of organic, carbon containing but in truth, bio is, is perceived to me as plant based to a large degree.

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, but that’s not what your regulations or policies are, right? Bio, it could be better also, to go into.

Sam Rushing replied and said, So that stuff that includes that they go to a dairy farm and a make a biogas plant, they’re making RNG, renewable natural gas, and then you have co2, a byproduct of that, whether it’s going to go to an industrial setting of some kind. And if it’s going to an industrial setting that makes metal or things like that, well, that’s fine or concrete or whatever, that’s one. Yeah, and who would carry it in for that in that respect, but the gas companies that have like, they say, We don’t, we don’t mix trailers. So basically, they haven’t accepted biogas yet, by co2. That’s 30% of the market is industrial. So in some cases, it’s more, and the industrial markets are growing all the time, because new applications are being developed all the time. Developing plastics that use co2. Things are replaced with hydrocarbons. Co2 is an ingredient and fuels methanol, for example. I mean, that’d be a wonderful feedstock for stuff like methanol, co2 off some of those sources. But back to hemp, you would easily produce a food and beverage trade off that and then the markets could very much love that, for that matter. So it’s a function of trying to find the principles of the industry, that investors say the technology firms would apply this, and that I like to think the future could very well include half and it should.

  • Freezer Capabilities

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, I think we will always need freezer capabilities that we just provide. But I think better insulation is a key piece to reducing the amount that we need, right and reducing what is required or the amount of time that it can retain its temperature or keep its temperature. But I think that we will always need the freezer we need. We will always need to be able to drop the temperature below room temperature or below two degrees or whatever. But yes, I think that this is a value-add also right that has passed. It’s extremely insulative it will do better. And I think one of the biggest values is in those big trucks or in RVs, in living quarters in large, large areas, not just inside cars and so pretty, pretty awesome. Bill Hi. It’s great to see you. I’m interested in one of what Bill has to say here in the EU are 744 co2 is rapidly replacing Wow for fluorocarbons and refrigeration since it allows large waste heat recovery and gas cooler Are you seeing are seven for for using use increasing in the US are seven for force specs just for upgrade co2.

Sam Rushing replied and said, I think what’s happening I’ve investigated converting companies that look to convert from chlorofluorocarbons called Freon. All types of refrigerants and say like in a supermarket industry where they have huge amounts of refrigeration demand and co2. Refrigeration is, in fact, viable, but it needs to be in warmer climates. Now I understand that there are a few of them here in the states in the South that are actually using co2 in lieu of CFCs which are very effective. And what I’ve read and what I’ve investigated, and what I’ve heard is not really doing much in cold climates, but more in the warmer climates.

  • EUR774 means

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, What is EUR 774?

Sam Rushing replied and said, I’m not familiar with our artists, and unfortunately, that’s the thing. I’m not familiar with it. speaking of refrigerant code and so on. But what I, what I look at when I don’t see a refrigerant code per se, that would govern co2. There might be industrial uses, like trying to replace CFCs with co2 and for some of the large industrial users, like, say, supermarkets and so on. And once again, I mentioned that I think a few have converted over here in the states in the southern climate and hot climates. But I also understand they haven’t done so in the northern part of the states. Now what they’re doing in Europe, I understand, that’s much more common. To be frank, they don’t know, they’ve been following guidelines that have been much more say, fostering good practices for the environment more into Europe, and they have been here for a long time, I believe that at least a lot of the European countries. So I That’s how I see it, I know. They’re the only thing and by codes and that kind of thing that co2 usage. Pregnant predominantly food and beverage, well, they always if it’s a food grade, and they’re codes that are governed by food grade trade associations, things like that, that have identified the requirements for purity. Now, I’ll tell you what, if you have a food, great co2, it would meet anything the spec that bill was talking about? So that’s, I’m sure.

  • The Engagement

Mandi Lynn Kerr asked and said, So, talk to me about engagement with you as a consultant, talk to me about how to engage somebody, what does a typical engagement look like? Who are the best clients that you’re working with? Talking about who fits inside this box? If somebody is your service?

Sam Rushing replied and said, Well, yeah, companies come to me when I’ve written hundreds of articles in the industry on co2 applications and practices and sources and whatnot but a lot of them come to me via my website, which is That’s one way or just look me up the Sam Rushing co2. You’ll come up with a whole bunch of hits and then my name will be there predominantly and phone number. I can get my phone number 305-852-2597 email Yeah, Is my business email. I’m engaged on a project basis, a lot of times, sometimes hourly to evaluate sources, evaluate processes and evaluate the cost of production and the markets for co2. And the demand and things of that nature and the supply within a region within a country within us to whatever you’re doing is a project.

  • Trade of Change

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, really pays attention to this, like, use of energy, and what’s happening in a trade and a change or an advancement in technology. And it’ll be interesting, especially as there’s a need to find a new solution for a lot of this demand has not been met.

Sam Rushing replied and said, Go ahead, not to say expansion of commercial refrigeration with co2, that’d be wonderful. See that? Talk about Trader Joe’s and other large, say, cold storage facilities or larger grocery hungry, and things of that nature have a whole bunch of refrigeration that make a lot of sense.

  • Role of Hemp

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, See, and this is the kind of stuff I just more and more I would, I was, so it’s still just a baby. But so disconnected from where my food came from, where my clothes come from, what is involved in the supply chain, in order for me to have the convenience of walking into a grocery store and buying something off the shelves, it is just I’m so disconnected from it. And hemp is uncovered a lot just like this. I was removed at where hemp plays a role or could play a role or companies are adjusting to becoming more sustainable because of supply chain issues or because of lack of supply on their demand.

Sam Rushing said, And in terms of biomass, hemp could be a wonderful biomass. And then there has never been an argument about waste, derogatory waste that is by the food and beverage industry. And if you’re purifying for beverage quality, that’s going to be just fine for refrigerant as a refrigerant very much. So. I know that that’s one factor. I do know. It’s a little bit in its infancy here in the States, but I feel that there’s room for growth.

  • The Main Topic

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, This is obviously a topic over my head, but Sam, anything else that you think, we need to know what we should be talking about? Or what are some key things that you’re consulting on, recently or that you see here in the near future problems and concerns that are going to be coming up on the supply chain?

Sam Rushing replied and said, While the supply chain as I mentioned to you is for seeing a loop for merchant co2 is somewhat broken, no doubt. Yeah. Because, shortages of product pretty much started to become more severe at the beginning of the pandemic. And we underway all I’ve been told about, available transportation equipment drivers and, and to drive these vehicles. A lot of these guys have simply retired and said I don’t want to do it anymore. And it’s coming up as one of the natural labor factors and then also the rail systems about say 25% of the co2 in this country is transported via rail in North Arrow just talking about North America at large and for the Northeastern US which has had dire shortage of co2. A lot of that stuff has come out of Canada and the Canadian rail can have problems with labor. So in fact, and I’ve been on strike, but I believe that there’s plenty of lack of labor, train labor. So, that was a big problem there in terms of getting product from say, Quebec and Ontario down into New England for example. So, in terms of the supply chain, I just feel that we need to develop more sources. And of course, if we can develop sustainable sources, bio based sources like ham would be wonderful.

  • New Technology for CO2

Mandi Lynn Kerr asked a question from Bill, Any new technology for co2 removal from biogas biogas is expensive but can produce co2 as a byproduct, new technologies.

Sam Rushing said, Well, on the subject of biogas you have roughly 55% methane and 45% co2 and co2 coming off that is not so bad in terms of the product. However, it contains biogas that has never been successfully used. And to my knowledge in the supply chain for co2, now I feel it is up and coming to change. Now, the beverage firms have this association of biogas containing waste, okay. If it’s purely from food waste, for example, and doesn’t contain fecal matter that I think they would accept it. On the other hand, most biogas is coming from facilities like wastewater treatment or something on a farm or whatnot that contain fecal matter. So, that’d be great for the for the city industrial sector, that is not food and beverage, I know other hand, chemical, the computer fight at any level, and you could easily purify the beverage, good specs, and so on, coming off those that are considered derogatory waste types but the beverage firms will not accept it, and the trade associations will not accept it. That’s a problem right now. Now, that might change over time, because the realities are how many finite sources of co2, and then more and more biogas plants opening up domestically here, that would be a great source for supply to the industry. Now, if it were clean enough, and I would, I don’t care if it goes into my foot or not, I don’t care. As long as it’s pure, chemically pure, I don’t care. Now, I think a lot of customers would be turned off if they knew it came from an ammonia plant, for example, or a chemical plant making ethylene oxide, something like that. And that’s a byproduct of the hydrogen reformer, maybe the same thing. If they knew that, they’d say, Oh, God, I don’t want that stuff in my meat either. But in reality it comes down to the trade associations, acceptances, and also the, the food industry would have to accept this and the consumer. They often say the consumer will not accept something that contains waste. But they accept something that comes from an ammonia plant, they get a lot of consumers that don’t know that. I think it’s a matter of educating consumers to some degree, I really do.

  • Converting a Bio Product or Biomass to Ethanol

Mandi Lynn Kerr commented and said, Interesting. Well, I definitely think that there’s a shift about like I said, I know I’m not the only consumer that is so far disconnected from where the supply chain is. I am very interested in technology. Can you speak very briefly about what happens and on the chemical breakdown or on the process of converting a bio product or a biomass to ethanol?

Sam Rushing answered and said, Oftentimes, it’s enzymatic, a lot of the processes are proprietary. Nervous, if it’s grain based ethanol, that’s a simple application for fermentation. But, I think what we’re seeing is something that’s more of a biomass, that’s, it’s not really in the supply chain at the moment. So those projects I’ve worked on in the past have used various things to include bacteria to include the enzymes for conversion. And like the wood waste project I was talking about, and they’re investigating using other types of biomass and they’d be easily, amenable to using something like hemp, I would think, very much so. 

  • Difference Between Bio Butanol and Bio Ethanol

Mandi Lynn Kerr asked a question and said, What’s the difference between a Bio Butanol and a bio ethanol? 

Sam Rushing replied and said, ethanol is basically aligned to the hydrocarbon chain, that’s a difference. It’s a different chemical process that would create butanol versus ethanol. So it’s another alcohol, essentially, it’s what it is. So it is just another step or two that would change the process. The end result.

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, I would love to connect you with the group that has presented a couple of times with a bio refinery for biobutanol products or sugars and other things. I’m interested in where their gas is going, or what is produced, if it’s co2 or what that additional stuff looks like. Yeah, I’m interested, I just think that it’s fascinating. And like I said, it’s interesting how we’re still connected to really every other industry out there. And so my goal is to continue to have the conversations without an industry and look at where byproducts we create more materials and more offtake agreements, because hemp creates a lot of products.

Sam Rushing commented and said, Where the merchant co2 industry is very much a near New Source Types and something that’s clean, like call it the feedstock from hemp would be clean, yes, and sustainable. And it’s that the whole thing is making the carbon cycle is what you’re doing.

  • Extraction

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, anything else you want to touch on real quick, we didn’t talk about extraction, critical co2, you want to touch on that?

Sam Rushing replied and said, on the credit, supercritical extraction, what has been going on for many years, would be decaffeination of coffee using co2 as a solvent in supercritical terms. And a supercritical essentially means liquid and vapor are one essentially become one, if you will, co2 is unique in the sense that you can have dry ice sublimates, from solid to a gas, missus of liquid phase, but supercritical conditions would be under pressure, including the liquid phase. And the caffeination of coffee has been a common process here in the States, and all over the world for that matter.

co2 is a great solid for that and it’s clean, and it’s natural instead of a hydrocarbon. Now, the argument about mod is really pure. And what it’s really good for is to be used for supercritical extraction as a solid co2, they call it a natural product, and it is coming from a clean source. Well, virtually everything is a clean source in today’s world, because it’s coming from it would be a beverage great product, which has to meet those specifications. So in lieu of something like butane, propane, or hexane or whatnot, long chain hydrocarbons will be I could go on and on about the sides of the hydrocarbon chain, but still, I would if I were consuming CBD, I would like it to be coming from a clean operation for extractions using co2 versus a hydrocarbon. So in terms of the process of the supercritical extraction the extracting device extractor is raising the pressure for up to 300 up to 3005 to 5000 psi to extract that co2 I mean I’m sorry that CBD oil from from the heavy cannabis and then co2 in our cases we’ve covered we in the recycle them collected in some basically loop system. There are some replacements, but it is essentially a loop system. So it’s not wasteful.

Mandi Lynn Kerr said, Well, and again, this can become a topic, like there’s lots of different types of extraction. There’s a lot that are ethanol based, there’s some that are co2. So, so yeah, I think that there’s even more you’d mentioned butanol. I know that when I first got into this industry, I was working with a group that was trying to figure out not working with but I was really attending events trying to figure out what we had or what he had created. Right. And he had taken a an extraction technology from the dairy industry. It was using PayPal, okay same type but it was holding on to those facts or those pulling the lipids out and yeah, yeah. Extraction, but then this time operation, it was also pulling the chlorophyll and everything else. So there were a lot of differences on what it is. But yeah, I was interesting, I learned a lot. I learned a lot for a second about what I shouldn’t say, but I definitely dove in for a couple of months on extraction and trying to figure it out.

Sam Rushing said, if you talk about co2 overload for the human body, I mean we have 400 parts in the atmosphere, the air earlier that we breathe, they talked about co2 poisoning and asphyxiation and so on. So just words mentioned, I guess, if you’d have as much as 10,000 parts, you become drowsy and 12,000 parts, which would be 1.2% co2, and yet in a given place, it’s going to cause headaches and then goes on and on, on that point over 20,000 parts of cause death and training for the sake of like its fixation. So co2 and processing plants have to be monitored with respect to atmospheric and a lot of ventilation that occur?

  • Immediate Hurdles Need To Overcome

Mandi Lynn Kerr commented and said,  can imagine. This is the processing or manufacturing of the products that industry is trying to sequester right and trade the carbon and so it’s such an interesting dichotomy, relationship. Crossover, that really, all the materials that we’re hoping to be made out of hemp will need to be, for example, transported with or could potentially be needed. To transport the material or transport that hamburger or hemp, chicken or hemp oil, or whatever it is. It’s just our extraction of it. Processing of it. Just interesting to me. I’ve done some incredible things with biobutanol. And I’m actually interested in what is the offtake? Or what does this look like? I know they’re focused on biobutanol, though, versus the ethanol, I would assume that the process is probably pretty similar or something close. So I’m interested in what that would look like and what opportunity, then would we have to fulfill one of those demands? Or what are some of the immediate hurdles that we need to overcome? Like you said, if it’s not accepted through the associations or through the,the standard is, is still not developed? It’s something we’ve got to look into.

Sam Rushing said,  biomass has a great future. But it hasn’t been tapped very much so far as a feedstock. co2 for call it as is one of the sources for co2 feedstock and making food grade co2, food and beverage. Great We’re short of it in the states and short of it right now. They have a crisis of sorts, again, in Europe going on, same thing. 

  • Connect with Sam Rushing

Mandi Lynn Kerr asked Sam Rushing, one more time how somebody can get a hold of you if they want to connect?

Sam Rushing said, that’d be wonderful. And then somebody recently connected with me on LinkedIn, just sent a quick email and read my articles, and there’s always a reference to my contact information.

Mandi Kerr
Author: Mandi Kerr